Curse

Dax · Jun 20, 2005, 02:49 PM // 14:49

The issue of player stores is an intersesting one but doesn't fix anything if all people care about are high end expensive PVP items.

Saerden · Jun 20, 2005, 03:19 PM // 15:19

So few sane voices in a sea of chaos.

Do you think that if i find a +15% hp>50%, max dmg fellblade, i will just give it to you for free? You people see the gold, and completely loose track of the only real currency in an online economy: time.

The problem is that you can gain money from nothing, you just need to spend x amount of time, and receive y amount of gold. In order for the price to be unreasonable, finding a perfect weapon needs to be easier then farming 1,3m Gold.
Is it the case now?

You claim that there is no point in selling a good weapon for 200k, because gold is worthless. So i now should sell it for a price you can pay? I just delete it, cy and have a nice day.

If a new player is supposed to get a rare, perfect weapon, then make the rare perfect weapons easily aviable. In order to get something that is hard to get, you need to CONVINCE me to give it to you. Whats the point of even picking it up if i only get worthless gold for it? Not everyone needs 15k armor for his 7th char, and some dont even bother with it for the main char.

The problem of the current prices are NOT the players, its the lack of gold sinks. Frog Devourer made it very clear. He made a mistake though. Every item sold for 1,4m gold is worth every single coin of it. At least, under the current economical situation. The market is always right.

Sorry but if i have something that only drops once in a month, you still wont be able to get it even if i sell it for 10k. Know why? Because its rare. Sure you have the gold, but you still cant buy it. I just sold it ...

As of now, gold is totally worthless. You should be glad someone bothers to sell something for gold at all. A shop system would only lead to the following: shops filled with junk. the real items will still become barter only. Either nerf gold drops or make good gold sinks. No way around this.

*edit: the traders currently in game help reduce the prices for low end items. runes may be common as hell, but they are not interchangeable. Why would i bother to sell the mesmer rune to the guy who needs one for 100g? It takes 10mins to find him, and in that time i could farm / earn gold through regular gameplay. At least 10x times the amount i could "make" (lose) doing the sale.. Since time is the only currency, AH / traders DO lower prices, but you just wont notice it on the high end.

TopGun · Jun 20, 2005, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

but....charging PvPers to play in the arena's isn't REQUIRED...it's only required if you want to play PvP....just like it's only REQUIRED to buy Ale if you want to get e-drunk....Charging a player 200 or 300g to play in the arena is NOTHING...nobody would have any problem with it. They might bitch and moan for 23 seconds before they realized that they have 200plat and it doesn't really matter...but over time it would be an incredibly effective money sink...and from what I've heard WoW's attempt at fixing their economy has failed notoriously.

It is considered required, because another core facet of the game is to be able to instantly get to level 20 and PvP, charging for that would break the back of that system completely.

What have you heard about WoW? Have you played it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saerden

As of now, gold is totally worthless. You should be glad someone bothers to sell something for gold at all. A shop system would only lead to the following: shops filled with junk. the real items will still become barter only. Either nerf gold drops or make good gold sinks. No way around this.

I agree with this, however money sinks won't assign a real value to items, thus allowing people to continue to sell items at outrageous prices. I understand that a money sink is required and I understand why its required- the economy needs to be deflated. But I ALSO think that we need to make people aware of the true value of the item they are selling or buying- this will prevent over-the-top pricing. WoW had a way to do that with auction houses because pricing became competitive.

I'm not arguing money sinks. I agree a money sink is needed. But please understand that you cannot undermine core facets of gameplay in order to reduce the amount of money available in the game. 15k armors were meant to be sinks- those apparently haven't been working too well.

Does anyone have any ideas for potential money sinks that would help reduce the amount of money currently in the economy?

Saerden · Jun 20, 2005, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopGun

But I ALSO think that we need to make people aware of the true value of the item they are selling or buying- this will prevent over-the-top pricing. WoW had a way to do that with auction houses because pricing became competitive.

Actually i think that people who sold perfect weapons for 200k got scammed. In order for a true value to exist, the currency needs to have a worth. Black dyes are like gold (the real one). Noone killed people with golden swords, but everybody still wanted it. It was totally pointless from a RL powergamers point of view, yet it was one of the best currencies humanity ever had.
Same with black dye. Or SoJ. It needs to have a point besides just trading.

If the government screws up, and the dollar becomes worthless, your out of luck. If you do your trading with gold / diamonds / guns, you still have something that most people will accept, even if the artificial "tag" that says "accept me, im a currency" is gone.

When gold gets a value, AHs will help to reduce the problems with the economy. They will do this by making everything cheaper. people forget that you have to pay 1000g if you want to sell something for 10-20mins while not doing something else. This is a hidden fee, since you could DELETE the item, but just go out and farm / play the game and get 1k in that time.

So trading systems reduce the amount of time it takes for the buyer and seller to find each other. For the low end, this lowers prices. Some Sup runes are sold for 125 gold i hear, because few want them. The only reason they were so expensive in the first place is because it took a huge amount of time to find the seller for the rune you currently needed. Vigor is still rare (may change over time, if more vigors drop then characters created that need it), so its still expensive.

*edit: im against ruing this game even more by having a "p2p" sytem for arenas. You really thing the wealth is in the hands of pvp players? It will stay there, but the players wont

Galatea · Jun 20, 2005, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Auction Houses / Trading Centers / Personal Shops / etc. have all been covered in the Sardelac suggestions forum. Most posts mention a need for one of the above.

This was my detailed proposal for an Auction House, and it goes in depth as to how it would function, as well as some pros/cons, etc.

Algren Cole · Jun 20, 2005, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopGun

It is considered required, because another core facet of the game is to be able to instantly get to level 20 and PvP, charging for that would break the back of that system completely.

What have you heard about WoW? Have you played it?

nah I haven't played WoW...as a whole I'm not entirely interested in MMORPGs...basically for the exact reason that this game is pretty awful. You get too many people all arguing over stupid bullshit that doesn't matter....and nobody ever cares to think about how much fun they are having playing it. I mainly stick to FPS and Console RPGs...atleast that way the only thing I have to argue about it is whether or not I'm hacking.

I've just been told that the WoW economy is WAY out of whack...there's far too much gold in the economy and nothing to spend it on.

Shadowdaemon · Jun 20, 2005, 06:11 PM // 18:11

no i really dont think i have missed the point, you do NOT need a perfect weapon OR a superior vigor rune to be competitive, it is a very minor edge that these things will give you.

also, no matter what gold sinks are put into the game, if people want to hoard gold, they will hoard it, its already been made much easier to get runes and rare crafting materials, how much easier does the game need to be????

and for people who say they dont have time to play enough to find items or gold, well, if you dont have time to play the game, then dont play the game, dont whine because you dont get things because you cant play the game

Jwh6913 · Jun 20, 2005, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowdaemon

no i really dont think i have missed the point, you do NOT need a perfect weapon OR a superior vigor rune to be competitive, it is a very minor edge that these things will give you.

also, no matter what gold sinks are put into the game, if people want to hoard gold, they will hoard it, its already been made much easier to get runes and rare crafting materials, how much easier does the game need to be????

and for people who say they dont have time to play enough to find items or gold, well, if you dont have time to play the game, then dont play the game, dont whine because you dont get things because you cant play the game

Exactly why i suggested a gold wipe- it puts everybody on the same footing. have it be a surprise deal so people can't buy hordes of items to resell AFTER the wipe and gain a fraction of the gold back. , and with the current farming nerfs and fixes coming up, the ultra rich won't have a chance to get their pool of gold back at all. Every mmo, no matter what kind of mmo it is, have to keep their enconmy under control or they would lose new players all the time.

and i think sinks greater than 15k has to be put in and be non optional for most. I would also suggest that , have the game itself gauge how much gold you have, then charge you a percentage of the value you have to get something really awesome looking, like a unique looking weapon or a entirely new map. may it be the mursaat city that Saul saw, or lost ruins of ancient civilizations that contains weapons/armor never seen before. Something has to be done at least. Anything would do!

EmperorTippy · Jun 20, 2005, 07:22 PM // 19:22

They problem with a gold wipe is that you have people like me.

I refer you to another thread were I commented on this extensivily.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=23111

And as for your second idea the sinks should stay optional because what about people trying to buy the fissure armor which will cost you over 300K if you buy even half the shards and ectoplasm that you need. Now if you add in this sink that takes xxxx amount of money away from me then a) i will use friends to get around it b) you are punishing me, a person who has only farmed in Fissure of Woe for shards and ectoplasm and everything else that I've got has been giving to guildes.

So stop blaming others for your inability to make money in this game as it is one of the easyiest things to do.

EvilWizard · Jun 20, 2005, 08:24 PM // 20:24

In EQ when they opened a zone where you could set up your character as a shop it really helped price gouging because buyers could search for an item or a class of item and it would bring up all the players that were vending that item. This forced the sellers to put in reasonable prices because if you have 5 vendors selling an item for around the same price and then Might Joe Gougeprice was selling the item for more who do you think got the sale... I would love to see a dedicated selling zone where you can open a shop via seller bags, set prices for your items and go afk... The only issue will be lagginess because this kind of thing really needs to be done in a singular district (unless they can code it that you see all items for sale across districts which would be ideal)

Jwh6913 · Jun 20, 2005, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmperorTippy

They problem with a gold wipe is that you have people like me.

I refer you to another thread were I commented on this extensivily.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=23111

And as for your second idea the sinks should stay optional because what about people trying to buy the fissure armor which will cost you over 300K if you buy even half the shards and ectoplasm that you need. Now if you add in this sink that takes xxxx amount of money away from me then a) i will use friends to get around it b) you are punishing me, a person who has only farmed in Fissure of Woe for shards and ectoplasm and everything else that I've got has been giving to guildes.

So stop blaming others for your inability to make money in this game as it is one of the easyiest things to do.

nothing wrong with getting crafting materials for guildmates, but if you have a rather excessive pool of gold, and charging people whatever like 1,4 million for a bad rare ax, there's a problem. 1.4 millon is literally enough to fill your storage, your 4 characters to the max.

We need to eliminate that kind of thinking and go back to a real enconomy and set a permenent value on gold. nothing wrong with trading, bartering, but the gold isn't going anywhere but more is coming in and it depricates in value. look at d2, you only need to get like 500k and that's it for the game. The other mmorpgs has more successful control of how much gold is in the enconomy at a time. in EQ they ACTUALLY use gold to buy things! the way gold is going in guildwars, it'll just become a d2 style market- everyone will want to use something like superior rune of vigor as a soj- 5 vigors for that ax or 6 vigors for that sword, etc.

Acan Vishnu · Jun 20, 2005, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Personally I really like the idea of an auction system (I understand that Starwars Galaxies had a pretty nice one). If you put in something like a 2-5% sales fee on each successful transaction it would help leech gold from the economy too.

TopGun · Jun 20, 2005, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Only problem with fees is that in some cases they will force prices up slightly because players wish to cover their losses. But it does leech from the economy, along with stopping players from buying up the market, then putting items back up at ridiculous prices. If a player does that and no one buys into his scam, he ends up loosing money. I like the fee system on auctions; I fell its gains outwiegh its costs.

Shadowdaemon · Jun 20, 2005, 10:20 PM // 22:20

i think the auction idea is very good too

Sledge · Jun 20, 2005, 10:27 PM // 22:27

I really like the shop idea, similar to EQ's ... oh good lord i've forgotten!!... trader zone. An area dedicated to AFK(or not, i used to sit in EQ and bater with prospective customers) players who wish to peddle the wares they have and dont need r just want to sell.

Many say it ruined EQ, but the nature of Guild Wars may make it work.

But until then, i'm up for an auction house, sometimes buying up all items then reposting them to sell backfires.

MasterQu · Jun 20, 2005, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Alright just ot put in my 2 cents into this whole debate:

I really like th shop idea but I think the WOW item search should be used as well (GW Ebay?). This will allow players to easily find what they are looking for, compare prices and buy, plus it will help with overcrowding. I mean seriously can you emagine how long it would take to find what you want buy having to "walk" your charecter through umpteen cities that are duplicated over how many servers? I mean the sink hole idea is good, but I don't want to spend hours on end to comparison shop.

Another way to assist with overcrowding would be for Anet to set up a dedicated server for shopping, pull trading from the PVE game system. This would allow people selling and people shopping a common area to meet and trade without interferring with people who are questing.

Diplo · Jun 20, 2005, 11:54 PM // 23:54

The idea for a web-based Auction House is good. There's no real reason why it has to be part of the actual game interface and, in fact, there are advantages in it not (reducing load on gaming servers, for one).

EmperorTippy · Jun 21, 2005, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jwh6913

nothing wrong with getting crafting materials for guildmates, but if you have a rather excessive pool of gold, and charging people whatever like 1,4 million for a bad rare ax, there's a problem. 1.4 millon is literally enough to fill your storage, your 4 characters to the max.

We need to eliminate that kind of thinking and go back to a real enconomy and set a permenent value on gold. nothing wrong with trading, bartering, but the gold isn't going anywhere but more is coming in and it depricates in value. look at d2, you only need to get like 500k and that's it for the game. The other mmorpgs has more successful control of how much gold is in the enconomy at a time. in EQ they ACTUALLY use gold to buy things! the way gold is going in guildwars, it'll just become a d2 style market- everyone will want to use something like superior rune of vigor as a soj- 5 vigors for that ax or 6 vigors for that sword, etc.

I don't charge that much for items the most I ever sold anything for was a sigil at 80K when the trader was selling for 85K. Everything else that I sell as a single item stays under 15K. I would love a more permenant value on gold but I don't really worry about it as I can always just go make about 30K in 20 miniutes of play without faming or scamming.

As for an auction house I love the idea granted none of the farmers would like me. I would put a gold max damage stormbow up for sale at about 5K as soon as I get the money for my fissure armor I am going to ruin the market for runes. Buy all those runes that no one buys and make a superior beastmastery worth 100K

Dax · Jun 21, 2005, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diplo

The idea for a web-based Auction House is good. There's no real reason why it has to be part of the actual game interface and, in fact, there are advantages in it not (reducing load on gaming servers, for one).

I think they'd still need to pull the data off the servers so there would still be a load. I'd rather have something in game.

I agree it would be nice to have one, but I don't think it will solve the problems that people have with the economy

The Pope · Jun 21, 2005, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

my suggetion is the only one that will work effectively as a money sink....the PvPers that have been playing the game since beta are the players that control the majority of the gold....nobody else has a chance to get gold because the PvP players don't need to spend theirs...they buy from eachother, they sell to eachother....still at ridiculously high prices...if the poor can't get rich and the rich can't get poor.....you have a screwed up economic system. But arguing this point is like trying to argue why taxes are good to a republican....so I'll leave it at that.

That wont work because no one will pay. If that happened, I would sell my account and all its gold over ebay then go play UT2004. So would most rich PvPers.